Effectively it gives you all the power of fork() with all of the convenience of fork(). What you call “functions with arguments” has been supported since Perl 5.20. https://perldoc.pl/perlsub#Signatures. But imagine if I wanted to prove popularity by using 'last year in Hacker News' in titles. For those who haven't seen it yet. if any? People will likely shy away from installing an additional programming language. It's impressive that much of that code just works and no one has touched it in a long time. These scripts do a basic print() generating a \n only when running on Linux. I think since 2015. > "Perl was a popular programming language about 30 years ago", And if sometime in the future Perl is no longer included by default, it will be installed "by dependency" just when you install packages like rsnapshot, CSF firewall, etc. And those interfaces are nowhere near as “shallow” as you think they are. Can you find the bug(s)? Let’s compare Perl to other niche languages with low adoption. The Perl syntax to access a multidimensional array will be familiar to programmers in any other mainstream language: "For the young readers who may have never heard of it. This is just another bait and switch (“Of course, languages don’t go “extinct”.”) with some shallow research to pad it out a little. Perl was released 30 years ago. Is it dependent on the number of available jobs? We're still actively maintaining a whole bunch of TCL code, which is much farther down the list. Perl isn't dead. I would guess a bunch were about perl 6 since it was the new shiny. This is such a lazy trope. Many people learned Perl before named parameters, and to be fair they took about 20 years to arrive (and are still called "experimental"!). So we think it is time to reposition the conversation. The current state of Perl 5 for Python fans: Perl, however, was everywhere. I used to write Perl but I do not take it out of the tool chest anymore and I see very few Perl codebases in the OSS world. Compare this with Python, which I've never really used as a day to day language, but every few months have to deal with some smaller project written in Python. It is in official documentation: https://perldoc.perl.org/5.30.0/perlsub.html#Signatures. Perl 5's multi-threading model is less of a wart and more of a complete shitshow. Perl is a dead. It is funy thing about human brain, it skips the word NOT. The next logical step is for Perl to go away, the only question is when? Perl is a language that’s been on and off its deathbed for years now. Various parts of that style (magic variables, punctuation prefixes/suffixes determining variable type, automatic variable interpolation in strings, etc.) How is that not `functions with arguments` by any definition? Modern IDEs make syntax addition cheap. While its trajectory was pretty flat from 2013 to 2018, searches for Perl … Don't most programming languages have a few idioms that really annoy newcomers? Therefore, you could say it is dying a slow death like a lot of languages before it. Why use Perl when you could use Python? And for small stuff, I just have Zsh, which is a perfectly suitable Perl replacement. My understanding is that's still in use, but probably not undergoing extensive development. I'm using Perl daily at work. So, Perl has been a big part of my programming life. Most of what exists in today’s common (and even not-so-common) programming languages was invented before Perl. Although the implication that the scripts “only do a basic print” might be the author assuming there is a bug in the Perl one, which is obviously not the case if you look at the source for the module in use here – which goes to great lengths to support doing the correct thing across a very wide range of operating systems. https://www.mongodb.com/blog/post/the-mongodb-perl-driver-is... https://github.com/duckduckgo?language=perl. If you're building a message to go on the wire as part of a protocol that needs certain specific characters, and if you're trying to write portable code, then you shouldn't use "\n" (or "\r"). Perl just has a lot of syntactic sugar which can make it look like line noise to someone that doesn't understand it. The “one-liner” solutions in Perl were just what I needed: compact, easy to revisit after a long time (unlike a page of code), and lightning fast. I’ll always love Perl, but I doubt I’ll ever write another serious program in it – except maybe out of nostalgia. I dunno, for certain task I think Perl is unmatched. # was the current execution line; #=300 would goto line 300. Your reaction was curt and not the apology it should have been. The OSS world is all glitter? The core languages has exactly what you’re talking about since 2014 in v5.20 https://www.perl.com/article/72/2014/2/24/Perl-levels-up-with-native-subroutine-signatures/ The “experimental” status was reset due to a change in that spec. Long live Python! It is a fantastic tool. The perl code processes the entire stack of input files in about two minutes. Toggle navigation. Or put another way: https://xkcd.com/1205/ and https://xkcd.com/1319/. Anything that would take more than a loop in bash to accomplish, but bash style work. I've not used Perl as my primary language in over a decade, but it remains my favorite. Why the axe to grind? Having extensively used AWK and PERL, I don’t agree. But it has been quite a while since I last used Perl for cgi. I'm not sure using a very outdated CGI example as an illustration of why Perl is dying is all that convincing. If it lasts 5-10 more years, I’m good, as hopefully I’ll be playing shuffleboard between my Medicare doctor appointments. Typically those making/selling the language/tooling will be among the last to know about it, as well as a few curious googlers. An expert Perl user will always be able to show some nifty program that could never be replicated in another language, or would be ten times larger and full of bugs if it were. The answer is no. I’m not sure what you mean by Perl “[not supporting] functions with arguments”; functions work the same way that they work in other languages, defined with sub foo { ... } and taking parameters; as with Bourne shell, the parameters need not be declared in the definition. That was fun. A lot of breakage in that space is due to new people with no perl familiarity coming in and making changes--the pool of people that understand how that stuff works is shrinking. It's not dead yet. ----. Comparisons returned 0 or 1, so #=(X=25)\*50 was, “If X is equal to 25, goto line 50.”. I still write Perl one-liners on the command line for ad hoc data processing, and actually I think Perl is still the best available tool for that, although younger coders tend not to be familiar with it any more. Some personal reflections about the evolution and death or programming languages. The regular expressions syntax took awhile to master, but I find that regex is gaining a foothold everywhere, from mySQL to text editors (and not just vi). The OSS world, all the glitter, is just an iceberg to the ice continent of the software industry as a whole. What AES ciphers to use between CBC, GCM, CCM, Chacha-Poly? The hex output is as follows. I started writing it in my university for sys/admin stuff and then went down the rabbit hole and investigated most of the nooks and crannies of the language. If you want to see the numbers right away, scroll down to the next section. Nothing like a full answer to your question: Alas, not nearly so active as it used to be, but still a fair amount of activity. I would quite like to do more Perl, but here in Europe I always find the salaries lower than for Python, which is my main language these days. This article is poorly researched on at least expressing the functionality available and *used* by anyone writing Perl today. Without any user action? At the time I was working on Unix systems in a closed off, secured area with no access to the internet. It says in the source article "you probably don’t want to use CGI for modern web development", then explains all the reasons why not, pointing you to modern frameworks such as Catalyst, Mojolicious and Dancer. Perl 5 is like the jQuery of the server-side. Calling it "one of the first" programming languages is just flat-out wrong. > I used to write Perl but I do not take it out of the tool chest anymore and I see very few Perl codebases in the OSS world. There are lots of new tools for Perl, like Mojolicious, and lots of old and still good modules. Perhaps a little bit of research could help your point as well. Docker in Production: A History of Failure. Dead as in hasn't received an update in years. The only reasons to use Perl for a new project these days are because you have better nearby support (from yourself or others) for it than you do for another language or because there’s some rare library that Perl has that other languages don’t, and it’s not more practical just to port the library. For text processing of large files on a Windows desktop–admittedly, not a most common need–Perl is a viable soluton. I don't know any official Perl guide? As a real scripting language for basic system tasks is still good enough and probably you won’t find better replacement. I do have a ton of extra columns I'm filtering out but that's really good. This board is closed to new users and new posts. Until the last program is written, and the last machine to run that program stops.. can't really say it's dead. @thehftguy what are you talking about? Stripe has its systems written in Ruby without using Rails, for example. “One of the first programming languages.” Wow. I will use perl continue,just due to love and memory, So, MUMPS isn’t really popular, but it’s still used. Multi layer structures are also trivial in PERL (hash table or array composed of child hash or array). Off topic, but this blog loads an ad that disguises itself as a star-rating and comments indicator, which when clicked on takes you to this Mac security phishing site (at least on Safari). It’s reaching zero market share on this chart, what you’re seeing from 2018 onward is a single pixel as google trend is rounding up a near-zero value. Sigils? But I do have a few comments on the meat of your post. Ruby was barely a blip on the map until Rails showed up. Yes it does, but not for everything, and there's certainly less new work being done with it. and it lives on in the large number of PCRE or equivalent implementations – Java, Nginx, R, etc – which really moved the ancient Unix regex to a new level. Sure, Perl isn’t dead…just like COBOL isn’t, either. Thanks for clarifying. > how much new code is being written in Perl? Sure, Perl is loosing popularity but I don't think it's anywhere near dead or extinct. Conference in the Cloud! On top of that, if you found some exception or special case later that you needed to add support for...it was usually just a quick tweak to the Perl program, but often half a rewrite in Java or C. This meant (and still means in a lot of cases) that when you need to do processing on data whose format is not well specified and so you expect to not get it right until a few iterations, doing it in Perl can often be a lot faster than most other languages. since the early ’80s, Perl since the early ’90s, Ruby since the early ’00s, and Python over the last few years, I can tell you that currently Python is clearly the best of the lot. ), “Perl was a popular programming language about 30 years ago.”. Internet: You're not fooling anyone, you know-- (to TIOBE) Look, isn't there something you can do...? The solution for this puzzle is that mod_cgi will simply convert LF to CRLF silently. Nobody is innovating on Perl's CGI so it's not going to make use of any improved language features from the last 20 years. Curt J. Sampson’s explained splendidly to you how wrong your statement was, and he did not even make a complete listing of programming languages that existed before Perl came to life. That’s about when PHP started to get popular – because the learning curve was lower and simple things were simpler. This uses reading from and assignment to special “magic” variables for various functions. The idea that Perl is "one of the first" is just plain insane. There is no such thing as an unvarying, physical newline character. 185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by … > The other topics there have been rehashed many times before and are little more than extrapolations and exaggerations - how could a language ever go extinct ... Wikipedia has a list of major programming languages by generation: Its not dead, but how much new code is being written in Perl? Books like Modern Perl give the style to keep Perl modern without falling … Keeps working great with Perl 5.20, which is the most recent Perl version at this moment. Personally aside from getting sucked into ~ 30% devops over the last few years, I've had trouble finding decently paid work that isn't perl. I guess that depends on whether you consider an obviously tongue-in-cheek backronym to be "the official name". A curious bifurcation. I am curious, how do you find clients who need Perl programmers? Wordpress is showing ads automatically on all blogs, I might be able to pay and disable them if they are really as horrific as that. Consider LISP, which is much older, arguably weirder, and yet is seeing if anything a resurgence of popularity (e.g., Clojure) in the last ten years. For example, if I remember correctly, Perl supported both "&&" and "and", with 2 different precedences. Perl is not dead? If we're going to go with xkcd, the "death date" reminds me a bit of. It was a big improvement over using combinations of Bourne shell, sed and AWK. Perl is not dead if you're keeping track of the language. Many projects use Perl, will continue to use Perl, and as long as the Perl developers continue to release new versions of Perl, it is not dead or dying. Besides, many websites are still written in it which seems to be important for some reason. * Every four years I organize a German Perl Workshop, and the attendance is roughly the same each year (80-120 people), * Take a look at the commit stats of the Perl 5 interpreter at github, looks pretty stable over the past years: https://github.com/Perl/perl5/graphs/contributors. However, I have used many other tools as well, so I haven't stayed in touch with Perl-using companies much. I think it’s fair to say that Perl can be considered a dead language. :-) ). The bug works on Python. For those you might be influenced by this article, I encourage you to do your own investigation. Delphi: A programming language and IDE, based on Pascal, like C++ is based on C. Designed to write desktop applications. Ruby: 687 If the language is being maintained and bugs fixed, is that dying? After that I never wrote any "real" code in Perl, but I kind of want to write some clever, convoluted Perl code just because I can. If I was lucky I got a system with a modern Linux OS on it like Red Hat, but sometimes I had to work on a Solaris UNIX system that was pretty bare bones. There’s plenty of stuff that’s better done in a compiled language that can be made very machine-level efficient, and that includes a lot of data science stuff. Says the pointy-haired boss type of person. It's really not much. it isn't as popular as other languages, and it isn't being used for as many new projects. I first used it in 1994, around the time the early versions of Perl 5 were released. I think it’s not the lack of an exhaustive list that’s bothering me, Maxim and probably a lot of other people, but that Perl in no way should be described as “One of the first programming languages.” It appears around half-way through the total history of “higher-than-assembler-level” digital computer programming languages to date, and after the large majority of major programming language innovations. Perl 5: I don't want to go off the chart.... Internet: Can you hang around a couple of minutes? COMIT, TRAC, JOSS, FOCAL, and a few dozen assembly languages all would wave, but they're a bit dead at the moment. Put Rails instead of Ruby deliberately. Most of the code case was written in Python, so I started learning that. People installing random modules into the same perl/python as is used for system startup/critical software has always been a problem but it is also one of those things that makes having a long term LTS nearly impossible because you can't separate the user needs vs. the distribution needs and trying to fix. It would appear that Python was 'more popular' than Bitcoin or Blockchain. Which is what perl was initially designed for. I like this flexibity. Another newly-born idiot-hater who illustrates his nonsence by samples of code from 199x Nevertheless, I’m sure your article will be vastly popular by everybody that knows very little about Perl but are happy to believe that their chosen language is superior without actually verifying the facts. HTTP headers MUST be separated by \r\n line ending. Are you implying that COBOL and Delphi are fast growth languages? ( Log Out /  Bill, while that’s a classic application for Perl, it’s not an argument to use it in this decade (or even perhaps the last decade) when we now have significantly better languages that can do the task just as well (or perhaps even better), such as Python and Ruby. People search for Perl and find ‘Perl is Dead’. Well, you can name your arguments if you want to. People on the outside trying to pick at the carcass for some cheap traffic via Hacker News. I don't even know much awk! Systems engineers find it useful because it’s snappy, quick, and beats awk + sed hands down. That said, since the article has been updated, there’s no more issue with that. >It was in fact one of the first programming languages, there weren’t many back then. Perl is not suitable for writing web applications. “func myfunction(arg1, arg2, arg3).” I used Python for a while, but the Perl job market was just too nice to pass. The Gmail bug that’s been stealing $187M a year from Expedia, The demise of docker and the rise of kubernetes. I recently learned Python and while I think I'm pretty OK at it, I still have WTF moments from time to time. There are many languages indeed. My favourite example is having to write in ancient bash just to support MacOS which still ships bash 3 something. I always thought that people who took perl further than 'great for sysadmin type tasks' were a little nuts. Perl 6 is another story, one that I didn’t have much part in. Interesting, I never considered Perl to be dead. All of the crazy things in Perl that drive so many people nuts today were derived from the shell scripting that everyone was familiar with at the time. Yeah, I told them at the time that publishing a CGI.pm article in 2018 was a stupid idea. Almost nobody was using Ruby in 1995. Apple has to keep it to still adhere to POSIX (which is still a relevant classification to many big buyers in government and enterprise). What does it mean for a programming language to be "dying" or dead? Is that a sign of a dying language? I do know somebody who is using perl for a RESTful api backend for a line of business app. It was like a puzzle. Will Perl 6 change the trend? Since 2009 Function::Parameters https://metacpan.org/pod/Function::Parameters was available using more formal extension mechanisms. * Work use of Perl and and hiring for Perl positions. It hopefully will be resolving the issues of people and packaged software using weird old versions because it is there and breaking when something changes. >>> And banks do use Perl. I put Rails instead of Ruby deliberately. I think most people writing new Perl code still use the no-named-arguments idiom, just because it's old and familiar. HN is biased towards startups, but still. Care to relate some examples that show how it is worse than any other language? Rails definitely boosted its popularity but Ruby itself is quite potent without it. At the very least they get a thrill out of using it. > Warning you probably don’t want to use CGI for modern web development, see Why Not to Use CGI. But Perl does have functions with arguments, by all definitions. 0000060 O – 8 8 5 9 – 1 \r \n \r \n Certain new features need to be addressed. I don't think that makes you 'this guy' at all I completely missed that and it's a valid thing to point out. I mean I have languages I don't use anymore, except on the odd times when I know they're the best solution. What I mean is that Perl doesn’t do functions with arguments like current languages do. But it’s there for anyone who wants to use it. It is mostly just iterating through dictionaries, whereas Perl pushes you to think of everything as a regex or text. TL;DR some people say there's demand for work in Perl and it pays well, others say they can't find Perl work, it doesn't seem to be advertised, and they have moved on to other things as a result. Ruby is, and it came out in 1995. The flexibility in Perl is nice, and while references can be a real PitA, a weird assertion to just make. (more precisely: it parses the headers the script outputs in a relaxed way and lets the server write them in a correct format later). The header() function does the right thing and inserts the correct line end characters. The use case you describe is a use case of diminishing value in an era of better IDEs and tools. My sister is retired, but consulted with an old company she used to work for in IT. Subroutines don’t return complex structures, Strict mode declaration checking, hashes, foreach style iterators are much less functional or missing in AWK. Get news about the cloud and the latest devops tools. I don't think we know enough to rule that out. In an overall growing market of programmers and projects, this means a decline of relative market share. Data from Google trend. For example, most networking protocols expect and prefer a CR+LF ("\015\012" or "\cM\cJ" ) for line terminators, and although they often accept just "\012" , they seldom tolerate just "\015" . The amount of 'legacy' systems that run Perl and need maintenance is staggering. You linked to an article about random paint splatters being valid Perl programs. Perl 5 is twenty-five years old. Perl’s Growth. PHP sucks. It’s reaching zero market share on this chart, what you’re seeing from 2018 onward is a single pixel as google trend is rounding up a near-zero value. Posted in r/programming by u/linuxer • 199 points and 204 comments The article asserts that the examples from stackoverflow had the bugs, in other words the Python one, not the Perl one. It’s still heavily used for the tasks it was used for when I learnt it, in 1994–1995, but at that time, it looked set for an even brighter future: it was develop And nobody uses CGI module from Perl in 2019. Other than C++ in high school, Perl was one of the first languages that I learned. Perl may not be right for you or your project, but please don’t base your decision on this straw man argument. 93% of random characters are valid Perl programs. Craigslist extensively and ongoing. Much has changes since then, but let's not rewrite history to completely ignore Perl's role in where we are today. Error codes in "$! Perl is still very much a viable choice for modern programming. Nor is it its decline, along with COBOL and Delphi, anything to do with age. Learning any bit of awk is worth every moment of the investment. autarch is right, "Practical Extraction and Report Language" is a backronym --the language was named 'Perl' first, and that acronym (and others) were devised later ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl#Name ). I don't write much Perl these days, unless for something inconvenient to do in Python. In fact, many languages even deliberately provide support to remove parameter count checks and get Perl’s @_ semantics. Although not AWK! Bug of the Day: Youtube broke for 40% of the UK population after rolling out 60 FPS videos. That’s why it’s installed in most UNIX derived operating systems as well as embedded in popular software products, i.e., Oracle and Git. For example, it doesn’t support functions with arguments, well, not like what exists today in mainstream languages. I stopped using perl in '95 when I tried to make a multidimensional array and the syntax was nearly impossible to figure out. Personally I think Perl won’t go anywhere. It's as bad as the XHTML/HTML argument, or Mac vs. Windoze. But to say you’re going to write in C++ the parts that you could write times faster in Python (or whatever your higher-level language of choice is) with no real penalty in execution time is just dumb. About 30 years ago, Perl 3 was released. https://perldoc.perl.org/perlsub.html. You make a remarkably good point: Perl totally upped the game as far as regex standardization, capability and awareness was concerned. The Gmail bug that's been stealing $187M a year from Expedia, My Experience In Production with: Flask, Bottle, Tornado and Twisted. Found in Citrix NetScaler CVE-2019–19781: What You Need to Know by Craig Young. I hate to be this guy, but Ruby on Rails is not a language, and Ruby the language was first release in 1995. Maybe? Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. How to Deduplicate String Objects In-Memory in Python? I process a daily extract of employees and assignments with tables in the high hundred-thousands into the single-digit millions. But folklore is a thing. After a while I started to contribute: bug fixes at first, and later language features. Or if I want a 100-line script that will work in 2029 the same as it works today and won't require any stuff to be installed first? I'm often tempted to rant about semantics and documentation culture in Python but then I remember hey, lots of people have similar criticisms of languages I know better, so maybe I should just give it some time. So the story goes. All great, except for the occasional special character or random corrupt line fed to us by the corporate accounting system. There are hundreds. It is a fantastic language but I can not justify teaching others it, or encouraging them to learn about it. Search for Perl this month: Out of ~800 positions, exactly 1 is for Perl, and Perl is mentioned in passing in only 2 others. Published on April 13, 2015 April 13, 2015 • 40 Likes • 27 Comments. If it's free it's not getting money from users to finance that; if the user base is dwindling it also means there are few developers or other-company employees to work on it. 1989 would have been the Perl 4 days. Perl was one of the main languages used on the internet pre-2000. For the young readers who may have never heard of it. Is COBOL dead, it had a version update just a few years ago. Can’t remember the last time I’ve heard about it. I know some folks in the bioinformatics community who still write CGIs in perl and I really have to wonder why. Can’t remember the last time I’ve heard about it. Software lifecycle is coupled to the lifecycle of the platform it’s developed with and runs on, so there is strong risk associated with little used or divested platforms. Work 93% of the time. ...able to write scripts in Bash, Python or Perl". Either way, still puzzling there is a typo in the official example. Perl first appeared 18dec1987, which is 31 years and 10 months ago. Also, it seems unlikely to be a “matter of time” until Python gets removed from the default Ubuntu install since Snappy and other Canonical tools are written in it. Let’s find out. [0]: never name two variables of different types the same thing; never use $a as a normal variable because it's sometimes Special. Next, need to figure out which one took longer to build, Microsoft Windows or the Great Pyramid. I never used CGI.pm for generating HTML...the idea of using functions for tags seemed unneccusarily dense when HTML is a string and Perl is well suited to handling strings.
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